Monday, May 25, 2009
It'll All End in Tiers...
Please forgive that awful pun.
Needless to say, the FFA's mooting of a second-tier competition has been the hot issue in Australian football over the past few days. It is a natural enough response to the draconian (and largely political) new requirements put in place by the AFC regarding places in the revamped Asian Champions League, and was bound to come onto the agenda at some point in any case.
So what are the pros and cons? First of all, the basic aim of a second division has to be the eventual introduction of a promotion and relegation system, otherwise it is a largely pointless (and expensive) innovation. And promotion and relegation should, in my view, be a long-term goal of the A-League. With expansion, and with the supporter bases still deceptively fickle, some sort of end-of-season excitement at the lower end of the ladder will ultimately be needed to maintain the crowds. The stupid move to a six-team finals series shows that the FFA are already concerned about this, and I suppose one should give them credit for at least confronting the issue, even if they have done so in an extremely foolish and short-sighted way.
But how many clubs will meet the inevitable criteria for entry to the A-League? Stadia in the state leagues are generally inadequate for a truly national competition (with a lucrative cable TV deal), and investment to bring them up to scratch would probably be beyond the means of most of the clubs. There is also the concern about whether an A-League club would survive a spell in a lower division, without an established youth system and with contracts to honour.
Then there's the old "ethnic" issue. Allowing the old NSL clubs with national affiliations into a second division is one thing, but the problems associated with a place at the top table for a Sydney United or a South Melbourne should not be trivialised. The hooligan behaviour at some of these clubs has abated since the move to the state leagues, but the trend is not irreversible.
I still feel that a "conference" system, with an end-of-season playoff among the state champions, is a better way of adapting the AFC's two-tier stipulation to the Australian situation.
Incidentally, it was disappointing to see both the normally reliable Mike Cockerill and Sebastian Hassett falling for the persistent myth that there is a "transfer cap" of $3000 for players moving from the state league to the A-League. As I've stated before, this is not the case, although the state league diehards have done a very good job trying to bludgeon this little misrepresentation into reality.
Needless to say, the FFA's mooting of a second-tier competition has been the hot issue in Australian football over the past few days. It is a natural enough response to the draconian (and largely political) new requirements put in place by the AFC regarding places in the revamped Asian Champions League, and was bound to come onto the agenda at some point in any case.
So what are the pros and cons? First of all, the basic aim of a second division has to be the eventual introduction of a promotion and relegation system, otherwise it is a largely pointless (and expensive) innovation. And promotion and relegation should, in my view, be a long-term goal of the A-League. With expansion, and with the supporter bases still deceptively fickle, some sort of end-of-season excitement at the lower end of the ladder will ultimately be needed to maintain the crowds. The stupid move to a six-team finals series shows that the FFA are already concerned about this, and I suppose one should give them credit for at least confronting the issue, even if they have done so in an extremely foolish and short-sighted way.
But how many clubs will meet the inevitable criteria for entry to the A-League? Stadia in the state leagues are generally inadequate for a truly national competition (with a lucrative cable TV deal), and investment to bring them up to scratch would probably be beyond the means of most of the clubs. There is also the concern about whether an A-League club would survive a spell in a lower division, without an established youth system and with contracts to honour.
Then there's the old "ethnic" issue. Allowing the old NSL clubs with national affiliations into a second division is one thing, but the problems associated with a place at the top table for a Sydney United or a South Melbourne should not be trivialised. The hooligan behaviour at some of these clubs has abated since the move to the state leagues, but the trend is not irreversible.
I still feel that a "conference" system, with an end-of-season playoff among the state champions, is a better way of adapting the AFC's two-tier stipulation to the Australian situation.
Incidentally, it was disappointing to see both the normally reliable Mike Cockerill and Sebastian Hassett falling for the persistent myth that there is a "transfer cap" of $3000 for players moving from the state league to the A-League. As I've stated before, this is not the case, although the state league diehards have done a very good job trying to bludgeon this little misrepresentation into reality.
Comments:
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I don't think the issue of stadia is too crucial. When a team from the second tier makes it into the A-League, they will play their home games at the capital cities' A-League standard stadia.
And what's wrong with "ethnic" clubs? If that's what it takes to make small clubs viable for national competition on a supporter base basis, then so be it.
hmmm,
i am pleasantly surprised / interested in a second tier. methinks rel / promotion could be a long ways coming.
my thinking is it creates a better home for old soccer clubs, and hopefully, a more professional, easy to scout feeder league for the a-league to tap into, seeing as they are gonna be seeing their best talent leave every year.
clayton
i am pleasantly surprised / interested in a second tier. methinks rel / promotion could be a long ways coming.
my thinking is it creates a better home for old soccer clubs, and hopefully, a more professional, easy to scout feeder league for the a-league to tap into, seeing as they are gonna be seeing their best talent leave every year.
clayton
# posted by 
: May 25, 2009 at 11:09 PM
: May 25, 2009 at 11:09 PM
Mike
Are we missing something? Ethnic clubs, narrow supporter bases, flags and the threat of violence sare the bejaysus out of the FFA!
So could it be the FFA will re-invent the A-League model in the second division.
Here's a suggestion.
Manly United
Mcarthur Rams
Belconnen United
you get the idea.esp if a team gets promoted...
add in a few non-ethnic clubs from Melbourne, Tassie, Perth Queensland and anywhere else and you could skilfully avoid the ethnic issue.
Reckon this could be the pathway...and the old ethnic based NSL clubs will still not make the grade.
Eamonn
Are we missing something? Ethnic clubs, narrow supporter bases, flags and the threat of violence sare the bejaysus out of the FFA!
So could it be the FFA will re-invent the A-League model in the second division.
Here's a suggestion.
Manly United
Mcarthur Rams
Belconnen United
you get the idea.esp if a team gets promoted...
add in a few non-ethnic clubs from Melbourne, Tassie, Perth Queensland and anywhere else and you could skilfully avoid the ethnic issue.
Reckon this could be the pathway...and the old ethnic based NSL clubs will still not make the grade.
Eamonn
...I don't think the issue of stadia is too crucial. When a team from the second tier makes it into the A-League, they will play their home games at the capital cities' A-League standard stadia....
But these teams are grouped quite tightly around a particular geographical area...I'm not sure that would be practical.
...And what's wrong with "ethnic" clubs? If that's what it takes to make small clubs viable for national competition on a supporter base basis, then so be it....
Not quite that simple. I think these days people tend to forget the poisonous image Oz club football had in the media (and among the population at large) pre-Crawford. It would only take one incident with an "ethnic" tinge to bring that all back again...and then your sponsorship and TV deals suffer.
And as someone mentioned on the SFCU forum, it's not just the ethnic clubs. A team like Sutherland in NSW, with a growing supporter base and a strong regional identity, would deserve consideration for a second tier comp just as much as an Olympic or SMH (although their stadium would need a bit of an upgrade).
But these teams are grouped quite tightly around a particular geographical area...I'm not sure that would be practical.
...And what's wrong with "ethnic" clubs? If that's what it takes to make small clubs viable for national competition on a supporter base basis, then so be it....
Not quite that simple. I think these days people tend to forget the poisonous image Oz club football had in the media (and among the population at large) pre-Crawford. It would only take one incident with an "ethnic" tinge to bring that all back again...and then your sponsorship and TV deals suffer.
And as someone mentioned on the SFCU forum, it's not just the ethnic clubs. A team like Sutherland in NSW, with a growing supporter base and a strong regional identity, would deserve consideration for a second tier comp just as much as an Olympic or SMH (although their stadium would need a bit of an upgrade).
....Mike
Are we missing something? Ethnic clubs, narrow supporter bases, flags and the threat of violence sare the bejaysus out of the FFA!
So could it be the FFA will re-invent the A-League model in the second division.
Here's a suggestion.
Manly United
Mcarthur Rams
Belconnen United
you get the idea.esp if a team gets promoted...
add in a few non-ethnic clubs from Melbourne, Tassie, Perth Queensland and anywhere else and you could skilfully avoid the ethnic issue.
Reckon this could be the pathway...and the old ethnic based NSL clubs will still not make the grade....
Ah, as you'll see from my comment above, you got in just ahead of me Eamonn!
Plenty of room for the "regional" clubs, of course. But if they go ahead with it, they'll have to involve some of the ex-NSL clubs in SOME way. You'd have a civil war in Oz football otherwise.
Are we missing something? Ethnic clubs, narrow supporter bases, flags and the threat of violence sare the bejaysus out of the FFA!
So could it be the FFA will re-invent the A-League model in the second division.
Here's a suggestion.
Manly United
Mcarthur Rams
Belconnen United
you get the idea.esp if a team gets promoted...
add in a few non-ethnic clubs from Melbourne, Tassie, Perth Queensland and anywhere else and you could skilfully avoid the ethnic issue.
Reckon this could be the pathway...and the old ethnic based NSL clubs will still not make the grade....
Ah, as you'll see from my comment above, you got in just ahead of me Eamonn!
Plenty of room for the "regional" clubs, of course. But if they go ahead with it, they'll have to involve some of the ex-NSL clubs in SOME way. You'd have a civil war in Oz football otherwise.
okay Mike
But the FFA ain't scared of a fight..so take a look at the 442 article today on West Tigers...
Choose 4 Clubs from NSW...MCArthur, Penrith, (newly changed smarter Apia) West Tigers, Manly, Sutherland. etc.....
Hardly an old soccer in sight and of course these clubs once htey are in have something worth building a broad community model towards.
Couple with the Int Clearance Certificate today in SMH you'll find some of those old ethnic clubs could find themselves under further pressure to be relevant if they miss out on Div 2..unless they are smart enough to move to the broader FFA community seemingly a la West Tigers.
Who are the five clubs from NSW who could play Second Div and meet the FFA..A-League criteria..ie no ethnic base, no ethnic badges, ground colours etc. in your view.
You are much more informed about NSW I'd be interested who you would propose...and think ahead 10 or 20 years and see where these clubs could be.
All big clubs with big junior bases and surely the future for the FFA's vision irrespective of how we see the past contributions.
But the FFA ain't scared of a fight..so take a look at the 442 article today on West Tigers...
Choose 4 Clubs from NSW...MCArthur, Penrith, (newly changed smarter Apia) West Tigers, Manly, Sutherland. etc.....
Hardly an old soccer in sight and of course these clubs once htey are in have something worth building a broad community model towards.
Couple with the Int Clearance Certificate today in SMH you'll find some of those old ethnic clubs could find themselves under further pressure to be relevant if they miss out on Div 2..unless they are smart enough to move to the broader FFA community seemingly a la West Tigers.
Who are the five clubs from NSW who could play Second Div and meet the FFA..A-League criteria..ie no ethnic base, no ethnic badges, ground colours etc. in your view.
You are much more informed about NSW I'd be interested who you would propose...and think ahead 10 or 20 years and see where these clubs could be.
All big clubs with big junior bases and surely the future for the FFA's vision irrespective of how we see the past contributions.
not having been around for the bad old days of the nsl (wasn`t a soccer fan then) ...
maybe i am missing something, ok - i am definitely lacking in historical context, but it seems ethnic is a dirty word.
clayton
maybe i am missing something, ok - i am definitely lacking in historical context, but it seems ethnic is a dirty word.
clayton
# posted by : May 26, 2009 at 11:26 AM
: May 26, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Clayton
A dirty word in football because of crowd violence and old soccer had "a few" problems which the media loved to highlight
Also mainstream Australia will never take to a so-called ethnic club in sufficient numbers to make the leap into the A-League should that be required
To broaden the appeal of the game beyond the kids playing we need to make sure we have clubs that all Aussies can feel attached to if they want to be involved.
The so-called ethnic clubs have a very limted supporter base imv and the risk of ethnic flags, fighting, chanting remains significant. FFA can't afford to give Aussie media any chance to kick our game. The other codes would just love it.
that said the challenge is how to get the people from the so-called ehtnic clubs into the mainstream game...not so easy.
A dirty word in football because of crowd violence and old soccer had "a few" problems which the media loved to highlight
Also mainstream Australia will never take to a so-called ethnic club in sufficient numbers to make the leap into the A-League should that be required
To broaden the appeal of the game beyond the kids playing we need to make sure we have clubs that all Aussies can feel attached to if they want to be involved.
The so-called ethnic clubs have a very limted supporter base imv and the risk of ethnic flags, fighting, chanting remains significant. FFA can't afford to give Aussie media any chance to kick our game. The other codes would just love it.
that said the challenge is how to get the people from the so-called ehtnic clubs into the mainstream game...not so easy.
I am really in two minds about whether to include the 'old soccer' teams in some sort of competition or not.
On one hand yes, there is the risk of wannabee euro-hooligan creating incidents that would be gleefully used by a section of anti-football media. This did happen for instance at a pre-season match between South Melbourne and Melbourne Victory a couple of years ago(unfortunately there are sections of some fans in some teams in the A-league that are also still keen on the odd flare or two).
On the other hand the creation of the A-League and the Crawford reforms which I supported enthusiastically and still do, have alienated a section of fans that after all have held the flame of football alight through pretty dark times.
Unlike some who are now in key positions in football who are relatively new to the sport (ie. Geoff Lord, Ben Buckley etc.) people involved in 'traditional' teams are football people through and through, and it would be good to have them involved at the highest levels of football again somehow.
I think an 'FA Cup' type competition lets say between winners of state leagues and A League teams could be a goer.
Personally I don't think that a relegation/promotion system will work in Australia. Unfortunately the number of people who support football is relatively small and out total population is small as it is.
We are not Italy or the UK where the core of fans who will follow a team in the second division can be substantial.
If we have small crowds for teams that are doing badly such as Perth imagine what would happen to them if the dropped to a lower division.
I would like to have promotion/relegation and also get rid of finals where the top team at the end of the season wind the championship, but these are not Australian traditions.
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On one hand yes, there is the risk of wannabee euro-hooligan creating incidents that would be gleefully used by a section of anti-football media. This did happen for instance at a pre-season match between South Melbourne and Melbourne Victory a couple of years ago(unfortunately there are sections of some fans in some teams in the A-league that are also still keen on the odd flare or two).
On the other hand the creation of the A-League and the Crawford reforms which I supported enthusiastically and still do, have alienated a section of fans that after all have held the flame of football alight through pretty dark times.
Unlike some who are now in key positions in football who are relatively new to the sport (ie. Geoff Lord, Ben Buckley etc.) people involved in 'traditional' teams are football people through and through, and it would be good to have them involved at the highest levels of football again somehow.
I think an 'FA Cup' type competition lets say between winners of state leagues and A League teams could be a goer.
Personally I don't think that a relegation/promotion system will work in Australia. Unfortunately the number of people who support football is relatively small and out total population is small as it is.
We are not Italy or the UK where the core of fans who will follow a team in the second division can be substantial.
If we have small crowds for teams that are doing badly such as Perth imagine what would happen to them if the dropped to a lower division.
I would like to have promotion/relegation and also get rid of finals where the top team at the end of the season wind the championship, but these are not Australian traditions.
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