Sunday, December 09, 2007
Verbeek: Reactions
Ever since the news came through that Pim Verbeek was our new man in charge, the assorted pundits have been churning out opinion pieces by the bucketload. Most of them predictably knee-jerk, ill-informed and misleading.
The "I would've gone for Troussier" line is fast becoming the best fashion statement in town. One wonders why, if his CV looks so impressive and his Asian experience such a good match, he was never mentioned in the media as a possible candidate until the FFA actually started talking to him. It couldn't be because our experts aren't quite as expert as they like to pretend, could it?
Robbie Slater has been the worst culprit on this occasion. His backing of his old mate Arnie is becoming even more cringeworthy than the impassioned apologiae of Mike Cockerill:
If you are going to go for Pim Verbeek, you might as well have kept Graham Arnold...
At least Arnold, working with Baan, has an intimate knowledge of the A-League players...
What's the difference between Graham Arnold and Pim Verbeek. One penalty kick on the record of the Asian Cup...
Arnold has a massive knowledge of the A-League...
D'you think you could repeat it just once more, Robbie? We didn't quite get it.
Slater is of the opinion that Verbeek's Korea were very uninspiring at the Asian Cup (at least, I suppose, he watched enough of our rivals to form an opinion. Craig Foster, it seems, didn't even bother). Plenty of observers would agree with him. But, like just about everyone else, Slater neglects to mention the injury problems that beset the Korean side prior to the tournament, which left Verbeek with a squad of almost entirely home-based players to utilise.
Hey, that's exactly what we'll be...wait, that might be a point in his favour. Better not mention it.
Slater, too, assumes that we will have to use A-League players in the "majority" of the games. Erm, well, there are only two games on friendly dates, the others will now apparently fall in the Euro off-season (just when temperatures in the Gulf become intolerable, coincidentally enough). Slater's not the only one confused about dates, though:
Both fall on FIFA friendly dates, meaning European clubs are not obligated to release their players until three days before each duel...
Well, two days, actually, Dave.
Verbeek is also burdened with the expectation of leaving a substantial legacy for Australian football, in this rather pretentious piece. Erm, Les...I thought that was Rob Baan's job? And were such expectations ever placed on a certain Mr. Hiddink?
Pim Verbeek is clearly going to have a tough job winning over the media and fans, who overwhelmingly see him as a poor man's Hiddink, or an honest man's Advocaat. Everyone's lining up to damn him with faint praise.
Let's hope the players, both here and overseas, ignore all the nonsense in the press and treat the new Australian boss on his merits.
The "I would've gone for Troussier" line is fast becoming the best fashion statement in town. One wonders why, if his CV looks so impressive and his Asian experience such a good match, he was never mentioned in the media as a possible candidate until the FFA actually started talking to him. It couldn't be because our experts aren't quite as expert as they like to pretend, could it?
Robbie Slater has been the worst culprit on this occasion. His backing of his old mate Arnie is becoming even more cringeworthy than the impassioned apologiae of Mike Cockerill:
If you are going to go for Pim Verbeek, you might as well have kept Graham Arnold...
At least Arnold, working with Baan, has an intimate knowledge of the A-League players...
What's the difference between Graham Arnold and Pim Verbeek. One penalty kick on the record of the Asian Cup...
Arnold has a massive knowledge of the A-League...
D'you think you could repeat it just once more, Robbie? We didn't quite get it.
Slater is of the opinion that Verbeek's Korea were very uninspiring at the Asian Cup (at least, I suppose, he watched enough of our rivals to form an opinion. Craig Foster, it seems, didn't even bother). Plenty of observers would agree with him. But, like just about everyone else, Slater neglects to mention the injury problems that beset the Korean side prior to the tournament, which left Verbeek with a squad of almost entirely home-based players to utilise.
Hey, that's exactly what we'll be...wait, that might be a point in his favour. Better not mention it.
Slater, too, assumes that we will have to use A-League players in the "majority" of the games. Erm, well, there are only two games on friendly dates, the others will now apparently fall in the Euro off-season (just when temperatures in the Gulf become intolerable, coincidentally enough). Slater's not the only one confused about dates, though:
Both fall on FIFA friendly dates, meaning European clubs are not obligated to release their players until three days before each duel...
Well, two days, actually, Dave.
Verbeek is also burdened with the expectation of leaving a substantial legacy for Australian football, in this rather pretentious piece. Erm, Les...I thought that was Rob Baan's job? And were such expectations ever placed on a certain Mr. Hiddink?
Pim Verbeek is clearly going to have a tough job winning over the media and fans, who overwhelmingly see him as a poor man's Hiddink, or an honest man's Advocaat. Everyone's lining up to damn him with faint praise.
Let's hope the players, both here and overseas, ignore all the nonsense in the press and treat the new Australian boss on his merits.
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"Both fall on FIFA friendly dates..."
Wouldn't this statement be correct? February and March 2008 are both friendly dates from what I see. Only every second March (the one after a WC or Euro, while qualifying for both are still on) has a full double-date window. Englighten me if I'm wrong or misreading you mate.
But your point remains. What annoys me is all this talk that we'll need to use A-League players for most games/most games aren't on full-week double-date windows/blah blah blah sensationalism. With the first group stage schedule now finishing in June, it might mean that only two of the 14 group games (six in the first, eight in the second if we reach it) end up being scheduled on friendly dates.
Wouldn't this statement be correct? February and March 2008 are both friendly dates from what I see. Only every second March (the one after a WC or Euro, while qualifying for both are still on) has a full double-date window. Englighten me if I'm wrong or misreading you mate.
But your point remains. What annoys me is all this talk that we'll need to use A-League players for most games/most games aren't on full-week double-date windows/blah blah blah sensationalism. With the first group stage schedule now finishing in June, it might mean that only two of the 14 group games (six in the first, eight in the second if we reach it) end up being scheduled on friendly dates.
# posted by 
: December 9, 2007 at 12:59 PM
: December 9, 2007 at 12:59 PM
..."Both fall on FIFA friendly dates..."
Wouldn't this statement be correct? February and March 2008 are both friendly dates from what I see....
Ab, you're right actually (blushing). Was looking at 2007 instead, shall alter accordingly.
Wouldn't this statement be correct? February and March 2008 are both friendly dates from what I see....
Ab, you're right actually (blushing). Was looking at 2007 instead, shall alter accordingly.
I normally don't read foster articles anymore but since you highlighted it, I gave it a quick glance. I laughed at this passage:
"This is the beauty of Australian football: you can be consistently wrong on every issue, yet still get a guernsey in the name of expertise. No wonder it's taken us 50 years to move forward."
Does he actually realise what he has written ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"This is the beauty of Australian football: you can be consistently wrong on every issue, yet still get a guernsey in the name of expertise. No wonder it's taken us 50 years to move forward."
Does he actually realise what he has written ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
# posted by : December 9, 2007 at 3:04 PM
: December 9, 2007 at 3:04 PM
I see what he is trying to say, its a valid point really i guess it was just expressed in a strange way...
# posted by : December 9, 2007 at 5:24 PM
: December 9, 2007 at 5:24 PM
As usaul Fozzie has made the most sense.
The Frog had a far superior Cv than the Big V however he is a good fallback.
Anyone notice hoe Guus is damed awful in his belief who should be coach.
Still let us hopw we get through.
On quality we should and a half decent coach will do it.
Unfortunately Arnie is not a half decent coacg at present.
The Olyroos have gone downhill since he has been at the helm
The Frog had a far superior Cv than the Big V however he is a good fallback.
Anyone notice hoe Guus is damed awful in his belief who should be coach.
Still let us hopw we get through.
On quality we should and a half decent coach will do it.
Unfortunately Arnie is not a half decent coacg at present.
The Olyroos have gone downhill since he has been at the helm
I'm quietly confident about Verbeek but must say I was impressed with Troussier's knowledge of the local game on TWG this afternoon. He probably knows more A-League players than Craig Foster.
On CV alone, Troussier looked to be the better choice. Hypothetically, if a successful Troussier were to leave the job early, it would have placed FFA in a parlous predicament with him insisting on so many conditions. To meet his demands would have involved some major reconfiguration of FFA operations, or even undoing some recent methodological pathways embarked upon by Baan. Troussier has broken contracts before.
Verbeek seems an easier fit within the current FFA structure. On The Round Ball Analyst, a refreshing perspective is advanced on the relative success of Pim in the Asian Cup with Korea. The Korea team was predominantly comprised of domestic players. Third at the Asian Cup was meritorious given this selection restriction.
Slater may not have been so keen on the Troussier apointment, if he had realised at the time, Omar wanted to exclude his best mate, Arnie, from the assistant coaching position with the Socceroos.
Decentric
Verbeek seems an easier fit within the current FFA structure. On The Round Ball Analyst, a refreshing perspective is advanced on the relative success of Pim in the Asian Cup with Korea. The Korea team was predominantly comprised of domestic players. Third at the Asian Cup was meritorious given this selection restriction.
Slater may not have been so keen on the Troussier apointment, if he had realised at the time, Omar wanted to exclude his best mate, Arnie, from the assistant coaching position with the Socceroos.
Decentric
# posted by : December 10, 2007 at 12:18 AM
: December 10, 2007 at 12:18 AM
I see Sth Korea have gone with a local coach after having gone "Dutch" for a number of years. Not surprising that Hiddink gives his assistants such strong references - if you think about it it is a good strategy to secure loyalty and to also make yourself look like a groomer of future leaders. Hiddink is a world class coach, but I don't take anythng he says too seriously any more.
As for Verbeek v Troussier, my personal choice would have been the latter. My personal choice means nothing however and I hope Verbeek can deliver. Somehow my instinct tells me Iraq, Qatar and China in particular are a banana peel disaster about to happen. Hope I am wrong.
As for Robbie Slater's article I had to read it twice to make sure it wasn't satirical.
Oh and one last point, does anybody know why Verbeek quit Sth Korea? It was a pretty short reign - and whether he jumped or was pushed it is not a good sign. I can't help but think if he was such a good coach the Koreans would have made sure he stayed.
BOTN
As for Verbeek v Troussier, my personal choice would have been the latter. My personal choice means nothing however and I hope Verbeek can deliver. Somehow my instinct tells me Iraq, Qatar and China in particular are a banana peel disaster about to happen. Hope I am wrong.
As for Robbie Slater's article I had to read it twice to make sure it wasn't satirical.
Oh and one last point, does anybody know why Verbeek quit Sth Korea? It was a pretty short reign - and whether he jumped or was pushed it is not a good sign. I can't help but think if he was such a good coach the Koreans would have made sure he stayed.
BOTN
# posted by : December 10, 2007 at 12:27 AM
: December 10, 2007 at 12:27 AM
After listenin to Paul william's show last night on 2KY I agree with decentric.
It does make sense to get the L/T strategy into practice.
Verbeek does this whereas My favourd frog didn't.
It does make sense to get the L/T strategy into practice.
Verbeek does this whereas My favourd frog didn't.
i remember hearing about some of the cultural issues verbeek had to deal with pre-asian cup. some big korean clubs had lost on the weekend, so the coaches made their teams do crazy endurance training as a punishment the next morning, then a stack of these players had to jump on a plane for an international friendly that afternoon to play the next day. korea had injuries, and korea has/had other issues. yeah, i have probably muddled that up.
the official line was he quit because he didn`t achieve the results he thought the team warranted.
but really, apart from hiddink and el tel, australia has never had `big name` coaches. we have had good coaches, bad coaches, okay coaches ... but really, we are small fish. verbeek is a good choice. thank god people still remember our world cup showing. we`d be in trouble if all people thought about was our asian cup showing. and all this talk about our `stars` - whilst our players now play at higher levels, most are tradesman type players ... we produce more luke wilkshires (no offence, i like the guy) than harry kewells or tim cahills.
i just hope the ffa lets the guy do his job - for all his faults, my only complaint about GA is that he didn`t walk away or do something when the FFA told him who to select. i think that happened ... yeah, i might have muddled that up too. but i heard something along those lines.
clayton
the official line was he quit because he didn`t achieve the results he thought the team warranted.
but really, apart from hiddink and el tel, australia has never had `big name` coaches. we have had good coaches, bad coaches, okay coaches ... but really, we are small fish. verbeek is a good choice. thank god people still remember our world cup showing. we`d be in trouble if all people thought about was our asian cup showing. and all this talk about our `stars` - whilst our players now play at higher levels, most are tradesman type players ... we produce more luke wilkshires (no offence, i like the guy) than harry kewells or tim cahills.
i just hope the ffa lets the guy do his job - for all his faults, my only complaint about GA is that he didn`t walk away or do something when the FFA told him who to select. i think that happened ... yeah, i might have muddled that up too. but i heard something along those lines.
clayton
# posted by : December 10, 2007 at 10:22 AM
: December 10, 2007 at 10:22 AM
Superjt, you're having a laugh, aren't ya?
As much as clowns like you hate him, Foster has been consistently right on all the big issues - td, hiddink, asia cup, development plan, butcher, Arnold.
What have slater and his chums at fox given us? Arnold, Farina, Postecoglou and fuken Spencer Prior.
Their two best analysts - Trimboli and Okon - are sparingly used. Why? Becuase they actually offer insight, not repetitive rubbish.
What's the worst is when we get twiddle-dee and twidle-dumb together for the epl. Of course I'm talking about Slater and Spencer Prior. Experts? Try egg-heads.
Foster is absolutely spot on when he intimates that Fox are rewarding mediocrity.
For gods sake, unpaid independent blogs like this one put these 'experts' to shame.
As much as clowns like you hate him, Foster has been consistently right on all the big issues - td, hiddink, asia cup, development plan, butcher, Arnold.
What have slater and his chums at fox given us? Arnold, Farina, Postecoglou and fuken Spencer Prior.
Their two best analysts - Trimboli and Okon - are sparingly used. Why? Becuase they actually offer insight, not repetitive rubbish.
What's the worst is when we get twiddle-dee and twidle-dumb together for the epl. Of course I'm talking about Slater and Spencer Prior. Experts? Try egg-heads.
Foster is absolutely spot on when he intimates that Fox are rewarding mediocrity.
For gods sake, unpaid independent blogs like this one put these 'experts' to shame.
# posted by : December 10, 2007 at 12:26 PM
: December 10, 2007 at 12:26 PM
Reading through a number of old articles re: Troussier in his time in Japan (in Japanese so I can't provide links), I easily see exactly why he was skipped over.
Rob Baan is the TD of Australia. His role is by far the single most important in this country, and will be for the forseeable future.
Troussier was no TD, but the work he did with Japan encompassed all areas. Not only was he in charge of the men's Senior NT, he was a continuation of a take-up of a certain philosophy in all levels.
He's also an arrogant bastard (not a bad thing necessarily). It seems a good choice for mine that the FFA have taken the coach who is far more likely to work with Baan than potentially rub up against him.
Were Baan not in the scene I'd have shouted to the rooftops for Troussier, but this is a delicate time and the Veerbek+Baan regime could work out to be a double act Australia could really do with.
I'll also point out it's probably in Australia's favour that it turned out not to be a so called "big name".
- JaZa
Rob Baan is the TD of Australia. His role is by far the single most important in this country, and will be for the forseeable future.
Troussier was no TD, but the work he did with Japan encompassed all areas. Not only was he in charge of the men's Senior NT, he was a continuation of a take-up of a certain philosophy in all levels.
He's also an arrogant bastard (not a bad thing necessarily). It seems a good choice for mine that the FFA have taken the coach who is far more likely to work with Baan than potentially rub up against him.
Were Baan not in the scene I'd have shouted to the rooftops for Troussier, but this is a delicate time and the Veerbek+Baan regime could work out to be a double act Australia could really do with.
I'll also point out it's probably in Australia's favour that it turned out not to be a so called "big name".
- JaZa
# posted by : December 10, 2007 at 4:32 PM
: December 10, 2007 at 4:32 PM
...On The Round Ball Analyst, a refreshing perspective is advanced on the relative success of Pim in the Asian Cup with Korea. The Korea team was predominantly comprised of domestic players. Third at the Asian Cup was meritorious given this selection restriction....
Very true. Tony's wrap there is (as always) bang on the money.
...I'll also point out it's probably in Australia's favour that it turned out not to be a so called "big name"....
I think so too.
IMO people are now convinced that just because we had someone of Hiddink's calibre for that brief period, Australia should always be in a position to attract that sort of A-List manager. It doesn't work like that, especially with our FA's finances in their current state.
Having said that, my only beef with the Verbeek appointment is that we're apparently paying so much for him. Over the odds, for mine. But such is life when you're desperate for an incumbent this close to the beginning of the qualifiers.
Very true. Tony's wrap there is (as always) bang on the money.
...I'll also point out it's probably in Australia's favour that it turned out not to be a so called "big name"....
I think so too.
IMO people are now convinced that just because we had someone of Hiddink's calibre for that brief period, Australia should always be in a position to attract that sort of A-List manager. It doesn't work like that, especially with our FA's finances in their current state.
Having said that, my only beef with the Verbeek appointment is that we're apparently paying so much for him. Over the odds, for mine. But such is life when you're desperate for an incumbent this close to the beginning of the qualifiers.
A smattering of Pim in Korea links
http://goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=320292&PageIndex=2
One of many interviews where Pim was unhappy prior to the 2007 Cup.
http://footballdynamicsasia.blogspot.com/2007/07/south-korean-players-ask-verbeek-to.html
Even though he was apparently a poor mans Hiddink, the Koreans wanted him because he knew the players so well.
This borrowed from a post-mortem could be very telling in both a positive and negative sense even in an Australian context:
The experienced stars were absent, however. After the withdrawal of Park Ji Sung, Lee Young-pyo, Seol Ki-hyeon and Kim Nam-il through injury, it was going to be tough for Korea to end its 47-year-long continental drought.
The team stayed positive and an Asian Football Confederation official remarked that it was the first time he could remember a Korean team taking the competition with the utmost seriousness.
Unfortunately, scoring three goals in six games is going to win neither points nor plaudits.Verbeek was unable to solve the team's problems. As the defense tightened, fewer chances were created and the strikers rarely looked like they could score. Unrest in the Korean media grew - not to severe levels - but enough to question the leadership off the field and the lack of diversity in attack on it.
The knockout stage was a slog with all three games lasting two hours with no goals scored or conceded. Those six hours were more than long enough to demonstrate the fighting spirit and fitness of a team, but also showed little in the way of creativity and initiative.
The critics apaprently (http://www.soccerphile.com/soccerphile/news/korean-soccer/verbeek-on-brink.html)
blame a lack of variety in attack for the lack of goals despite the team's ability to control possession.
http://goal.com/en/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=320292&PageIndex=2
One of many interviews where Pim was unhappy prior to the 2007 Cup.
http://footballdynamicsasia.blogspot.com/2007/07/south-korean-players-ask-verbeek-to.html
Even though he was apparently a poor mans Hiddink, the Koreans wanted him because he knew the players so well.
This borrowed from a post-mortem could be very telling in both a positive and negative sense even in an Australian context:
The experienced stars were absent, however. After the withdrawal of Park Ji Sung, Lee Young-pyo, Seol Ki-hyeon and Kim Nam-il through injury, it was going to be tough for Korea to end its 47-year-long continental drought.
The team stayed positive and an Asian Football Confederation official remarked that it was the first time he could remember a Korean team taking the competition with the utmost seriousness.
Unfortunately, scoring three goals in six games is going to win neither points nor plaudits.Verbeek was unable to solve the team's problems. As the defense tightened, fewer chances were created and the strikers rarely looked like they could score. Unrest in the Korean media grew - not to severe levels - but enough to question the leadership off the field and the lack of diversity in attack on it.
The knockout stage was a slog with all three games lasting two hours with no goals scored or conceded. Those six hours were more than long enough to demonstrate the fighting spirit and fitness of a team, but also showed little in the way of creativity and initiative.
The critics apaprently (http://www.soccerphile.com/soccerphile/news/korean-soccer/verbeek-on-brink.html)
blame a lack of variety in attack for the lack of goals despite the team's ability to control possession.
...The critics apaprently (http://www.soccerphile.com/soccerphile/news/korean-soccer/verbeek-on-brink.html)
blame a lack of variety in attack for the lack of goals despite the team's ability to control possession....
To me it just looked like the Koreans at the AC, when presented with a chance, couldn't score in a brothel (Lee Chun-Soo in particular).
If they'd had someone reliable at the pointy end (a Younis Mahmoud, for instance), I seriously think Korea would have won the tournament. They were the fittest and best-organised side there.
blame a lack of variety in attack for the lack of goals despite the team's ability to control possession....
To me it just looked like the Koreans at the AC, when presented with a chance, couldn't score in a brothel (Lee Chun-Soo in particular).
If they'd had someone reliable at the pointy end (a Younis Mahmoud, for instance), I seriously think Korea would have won the tournament. They were the fittest and best-organised side there.
One last contribution.
Let's hope the players, both here and overseas, ignore all the nonsense in the press and treat the new Australian boss on his merits.
It does seem that some of the players, being sportsmen and all and not prone to overthought, are likely to be led by the press on this one if that's what they have to go on.
e.g. "So Vince, Lucas do you feel that we should be able to take home the Asian Cup at the first attempt? I mean, because you're all superb footballers at such great clubs..." (slight paraphrase)
"Yes I do, it will be tough as all our opponents deserve respect but there's no reason why we can't walk this tournament" (slight paraphrase).
Wouldn't it be great if they could use their powers to poison the big boys against the coach?
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Let's hope the players, both here and overseas, ignore all the nonsense in the press and treat the new Australian boss on his merits.
It does seem that some of the players, being sportsmen and all and not prone to overthought, are likely to be led by the press on this one if that's what they have to go on.
e.g. "So Vince, Lucas do you feel that we should be able to take home the Asian Cup at the first attempt? I mean, because you're all superb footballers at such great clubs..." (slight paraphrase)
"Yes I do, it will be tough as all our opponents deserve respect but there's no reason why we can't walk this tournament" (slight paraphrase).
Wouldn't it be great if they could use their powers to poison the big boys against the coach?
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