Tuesday, December 18, 2007
Expansive Thoughts, Part 2
There are certainly advantages to be gained by expanding the existing A-League competition...but what are the immediate concerns?
1. Can we afford it?
With the new youth and women's leagues starting soon, a new national coach on a substantial salary, a broad development plan to implement, and a logistically difficult World Cup qualifying path to underwrite, it's hard to see how the FFA would be able to give any new club(s) in the A-League the sort of financial support that has been required in the past, start-up capital notwithstanding.
Added to this is the concern that the money for each club from the Fox broadcasting deal would be diluted, unless the terms of the deal could be re-negotiated quickly. Then there's the matter of how the gate takings at each club would be affected, with two new and presumably less glamorous teams around (with no past rivalry to add spice to the occasion).
And on the subject of a potential drop-off in attendances...
2. The hopeless end of the season
At the moment, all eight of the A-League clubs are in with a mathematical chance of making the four-team finals series. Thanks to the small size of the competition and the much-maligned salary cap, things are fairly even. But with a ten-team competition, and only four in the finals, the writing would be on the wall for certain teams far earlier in the season...and attendances would probably plummet (especially if one of the no-hopers was one of the new clubs, whose constituency would necessarily be somewhat more fickle).
One hesitates to mention the word "relegation", which seems to be taboo in Australian football circles at the moment, but should the A-League expand much further, without an increase in the number of "finalists", some sort of promotion/relegation system just might need to be introduced.
It would be possible to expand the finals series, of course (perhaps not to the ridiculous degree that the NRL has done), but that creates additional fixtures within a tight schedule. Which leads us to:
3. Length of the season
Almost everyone is agreed that the A-League season, ideally, should be longer. But there are many constraints on the league as it is, chiefly the necessity to fit in with Foxtel's scheduling plans, and competition with the rugby codes for available grounds. Wisely, the FFA have decided to schedule breaks for international windows next season as well, which further limits the number of weeks available for matches; a 27-game season would be a tight fit indeed, as things currently stand.
4. Dilution of the talent
A fairly minor concern in my view, this seems to be uppermost in the minds of some fans. Yes, if the players were spread around more clubs, the overall quality of the football might drop...slightly. But there are surely enough decent players to make the league a sufficiently attractive prospect still.
My conclusion at the end of all this? Expansion is certainly desirable, but perhaps not in 2008/09. I would rather the clubs (where necessary) hammer out better lease deals for their grounds, and consolidate their supporter bases, while the money gradually flows into the FFA's coffers from the World Cup qualifier gate takings; with the interest generated from the final stages of qualifying for South Africa 2010 (fingers crossed), the competition would probably be ripe for expansion in 2009/10.
1. Can we afford it?
With the new youth and women's leagues starting soon, a new national coach on a substantial salary, a broad development plan to implement, and a logistically difficult World Cup qualifying path to underwrite, it's hard to see how the FFA would be able to give any new club(s) in the A-League the sort of financial support that has been required in the past, start-up capital notwithstanding.
Added to this is the concern that the money for each club from the Fox broadcasting deal would be diluted, unless the terms of the deal could be re-negotiated quickly. Then there's the matter of how the gate takings at each club would be affected, with two new and presumably less glamorous teams around (with no past rivalry to add spice to the occasion).
And on the subject of a potential drop-off in attendances...
2. The hopeless end of the season
At the moment, all eight of the A-League clubs are in with a mathematical chance of making the four-team finals series. Thanks to the small size of the competition and the much-maligned salary cap, things are fairly even. But with a ten-team competition, and only four in the finals, the writing would be on the wall for certain teams far earlier in the season...and attendances would probably plummet (especially if one of the no-hopers was one of the new clubs, whose constituency would necessarily be somewhat more fickle).
One hesitates to mention the word "relegation", which seems to be taboo in Australian football circles at the moment, but should the A-League expand much further, without an increase in the number of "finalists", some sort of promotion/relegation system just might need to be introduced.
It would be possible to expand the finals series, of course (perhaps not to the ridiculous degree that the NRL has done), but that creates additional fixtures within a tight schedule. Which leads us to:
3. Length of the season
Almost everyone is agreed that the A-League season, ideally, should be longer. But there are many constraints on the league as it is, chiefly the necessity to fit in with Foxtel's scheduling plans, and competition with the rugby codes for available grounds. Wisely, the FFA have decided to schedule breaks for international windows next season as well, which further limits the number of weeks available for matches; a 27-game season would be a tight fit indeed, as things currently stand.
4. Dilution of the talent
A fairly minor concern in my view, this seems to be uppermost in the minds of some fans. Yes, if the players were spread around more clubs, the overall quality of the football might drop...slightly. But there are surely enough decent players to make the league a sufficiently attractive prospect still.
My conclusion at the end of all this? Expansion is certainly desirable, but perhaps not in 2008/09. I would rather the clubs (where necessary) hammer out better lease deals for their grounds, and consolidate their supporter bases, while the money gradually flows into the FFA's coffers from the World Cup qualifier gate takings; with the interest generated from the final stages of qualifying for South Africa 2010 (fingers crossed), the competition would probably be ripe for expansion in 2009/10.
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"It would be possible to expand the finals series, of course (perhaps not to the ridiculous degree that the NRL has done), but that creates additional fixtures within a tight schedule."
Forza five-team finals series!
(For those who aren't familiar:
Week one:
Qualifying final - 2nd v. 3rd
Elimination final - 4th v. 5th
Week two:
Major semi-final - 1st v. QF winner
Minor semi-final - QF loser v. EF winner
Week three:
Preliminary final - Major SF loser v. Minor SF winner
Week four:
Grand final - Major SF winner v. PF winner)
The best, most well-weighted type of finals series around IMO, and it's the same length and number of matches as the current series.
With 10 teams you'd still have an extra team missing out than at present but it's better than a four-team finals series with six missing out, or a six-team finals series which has various formats I'm really not a fan of. The traditional one in the NSL was really tough on those who finished outside of the top two and first place wasn't much more rewarding than second.
Forza five-team finals series!
(For those who aren't familiar:
Week one:
Qualifying final - 2nd v. 3rd
Elimination final - 4th v. 5th
Week two:
Major semi-final - 1st v. QF winner
Minor semi-final - QF loser v. EF winner
Week three:
Preliminary final - Major SF loser v. Minor SF winner
Week four:
Grand final - Major SF winner v. PF winner)
The best, most well-weighted type of finals series around IMO, and it's the same length and number of matches as the current series.
With 10 teams you'd still have an extra team missing out than at present but it's better than a four-team finals series with six missing out, or a six-team finals series which has various formats I'm really not a fan of. The traditional one in the NSL was really tough on those who finished outside of the top two and first place wasn't much more rewarding than second.
# posted by 
: December 18, 2007 at 6:34 PM
: December 18, 2007 at 6:34 PM
...(For those who aren't familiar:
Week one:
Qualifying final - 2nd v. 3rd
Elimination final - 4th v. 5th
Week two:
Major semi-final - 1st v. QF winner
Minor semi-final - QF loser v. EF winner
Week three:
Preliminary final - Major SF loser v. Minor SF winner
Week four:
Grand final - Major SF winner v. PF winner)...
Looks very good to me. In the current HAL finals setup, there isn't really much difference between first and second, or third and fourth.
Week one:
Qualifying final - 2nd v. 3rd
Elimination final - 4th v. 5th
Week two:
Major semi-final - 1st v. QF winner
Minor semi-final - QF loser v. EF winner
Week three:
Preliminary final - Major SF loser v. Minor SF winner
Week four:
Grand final - Major SF winner v. PF winner)...
Looks very good to me. In the current HAL finals setup, there isn't really much difference between first and second, or third and fourth.
Another option that has been mooted is a tournament which involves state teams.
I am not familiar with the leagues in other states, but here in Victoria it may work with say, the premier team of the state league.
I am not familiar with the leagues in other states, but here in Victoria it may work with say, the premier team of the state league.
# posted by : December 18, 2007 at 10:57 PM
: December 18, 2007 at 10:57 PM
all good points against except we have to increase the number of teams because of reasons in the previous article.
We must overcome the obstacles!
Quite clearly selection of new teams is very important however I have no inspired wisdom of how to overcome the obstacles
We must overcome the obstacles!
Quite clearly selection of new teams is very important however I have no inspired wisdom of how to overcome the obstacles
I am sorry but the league MUST include an extra team from Melbourne (and perhaps Sydney).
And they basically have to be teams that are catered to the 'wogs' that were, to some extent, disenfranchised by the new A-league.
Adding teams from the Gold Coast and North Queensland just seem to be making the league too clean.
There has to be an edge. There have to be some real rivalries that cut across cultural boundaries.
And a Final Five is the obvious solution. In an ideal world, this would not be the case, because on Grand Final Day, the better team may not win, but if its good enough for the World Cup, its good enough for the A-League.
And they basically have to be teams that are catered to the 'wogs' that were, to some extent, disenfranchised by the new A-league.
Adding teams from the Gold Coast and North Queensland just seem to be making the league too clean.
There has to be an edge. There have to be some real rivalries that cut across cultural boundaries.
And a Final Five is the obvious solution. In an ideal world, this would not be the case, because on Grand Final Day, the better team may not win, but if its good enough for the World Cup, its good enough for the A-League.
# posted by : December 19, 2007 at 9:16 AM
: December 19, 2007 at 9:16 AM
...I am sorry but the league MUST include an extra team from Melbourne (and perhaps Sydney).
And they basically have to be teams that are catered to the 'wogs' that were, to some extent, disenfranchised by the new A-league....
Please, please, tell me you're not serious.
And they basically have to be teams that are catered to the 'wogs' that were, to some extent, disenfranchised by the new A-league....
Please, please, tell me you're not serious.
...Why do we need a finals series at all?
Because we have no relegations?...
Basically because it's expected in Australian sport. And partly, yes, because there's no prom./rel. system.
Because we have no relegations?...
Basically because it's expected in Australian sport. And partly, yes, because there's no prom./rel. system.
it isan unfortunate part of Aussie culture that there are finals.
I hate but must live with it aslong as the Premiers have a distinct advantage
I hate but must live with it aslong as the Premiers have a distinct advantage
4. Dilution of the talent
I really agree with you that this isn't as big a problem as a lot of people are making it out to be. A lot of the talent that has been unearthed from the state leagues has proven to be as good as, if not better than, the 'established' A-League talent.
The short season unfortunately somewhat precludes coaches from gambling on non-established players.
More teams, and a longer season, would probably allow them to blood more of these new players and I don't doubt that many of them would surprise us with their quality.
Also, unless the season is longer, how can we expect the players of the A-League to really improve? More games will bring more improvement to the players we already have, and I feel this effect is underestimated by many.
The longer the season, the larger part of the year the players are playing meaningful matches and training professionally, and this can only be a good thing for them.
I really agree with you that this isn't as big a problem as a lot of people are making it out to be. A lot of the talent that has been unearthed from the state leagues has proven to be as good as, if not better than, the 'established' A-League talent.
The short season unfortunately somewhat precludes coaches from gambling on non-established players.
More teams, and a longer season, would probably allow them to blood more of these new players and I don't doubt that many of them would surprise us with their quality.
Also, unless the season is longer, how can we expect the players of the A-League to really improve? More games will bring more improvement to the players we already have, and I feel this effect is underestimated by many.
The longer the season, the larger part of the year the players are playing meaningful matches and training professionally, and this can only be a good thing for them.
I am serious. My point is that there is an undercurrent of anti-wog about the Victory (Anglo coaches, owners, songs, colours even!!). It has not manifested itself because there is only one club and the fans are happy enough.
But how else are you going to add a second team in Melbourne unless the second team can be clearly differentiated from the first?
If you think that second team is not warranted, well thats fine. But if a second team is considered importnat in order to have weekly football in the main cities, then, you tell me who is going to go unless a clear differentiation is made between the two teams?
But how else are you going to add a second team in Melbourne unless the second team can be clearly differentiated from the first?
If you think that second team is not warranted, well thats fine. But if a second team is considered importnat in order to have weekly football in the main cities, then, you tell me who is going to go unless a clear differentiation is made between the two teams?
# posted by : December 19, 2007 at 11:59 AM
: December 19, 2007 at 11:59 AM
Oh, so all the serbs and croats and greeks and macos and italians will all just join together and support Wogs United.
I'm not sure there has ever been a worse suggestion.
I'm not sure there has ever been a worse suggestion.
...I am serious. My point is that there is an undercurrent of anti-wog about the Victory (Anglo coaches, owners, songs, colours even!!). It has not manifested itself because there is only one club and the fans are happy enough.
But how else are you going to add a second team in Melbourne unless the second team can be clearly differentiated from the first?
If you think that second team is not warranted, well thats fine. But if a second team is considered importnat in order to have weekly football in the main cities, then, you tell me who is going to go unless a clear differentiation is made between the two teams?...
One of the crucial underpinnings of the A-League is that all the teams must be broad-based, and the history of the NSL shows exactly why this should be so (even if I don't like the way the NSL sometimes gets vilified on "ethnic" grounds). If there is so much of a hint of an "ethnic-based" club coming into the A-League, (1) the media will be all over it, (2) the whole idea of a broadbased league will be undermined.
As for your comments about Melbourne Victory, what about the playing roster? Vargas, Vasilevski, Piorkowski, Hernandez, Caceres, Milicevic (well, for a little while longer), Theoklitos...plenty of "ethnic" input.
And FWIW, I don't think there should be a second Sydney or Melbourne team in the first wave of expansion.
But how else are you going to add a second team in Melbourne unless the second team can be clearly differentiated from the first?
If you think that second team is not warranted, well thats fine. But if a second team is considered importnat in order to have weekly football in the main cities, then, you tell me who is going to go unless a clear differentiation is made between the two teams?...
One of the crucial underpinnings of the A-League is that all the teams must be broad-based, and the history of the NSL shows exactly why this should be so (even if I don't like the way the NSL sometimes gets vilified on "ethnic" grounds). If there is so much of a hint of an "ethnic-based" club coming into the A-League, (1) the media will be all over it, (2) the whole idea of a broadbased league will be undermined.
As for your comments about Melbourne Victory, what about the playing roster? Vargas, Vasilevski, Piorkowski, Hernandez, Caceres, Milicevic (well, for a little while longer), Theoklitos...plenty of "ethnic" input.
And FWIW, I don't think there should be a second Sydney or Melbourne team in the first wave of expansion.
....My point is that there is an undercurrent of anti-wog about the Victory (Anglo coaches, owners, songs, colours even!!)....
Utter rubbish. Looking for signs that just aren't there simply because there's some lingering bad sentiment that has nothing to do with Melbourne Victory itself.
Utter rubbish. Looking for signs that just aren't there simply because there's some lingering bad sentiment that has nothing to do with Melbourne Victory itself.
But got to admit that the Victory are symbolically rather "mainstream" are they not?
When I fist laid eyes on them, they smacked of Scotland. And they still do.
When I fist laid eyes on them, they smacked of Scotland. And they still do.
....a 27-game season would be a tight fit indeed, as things currently stand....
and certainly even moreso when you factor in the likelihood of some more international weekends.
nice series mike, it would be great to see the season expanded into march and april, maybe even may, thus giving players with international aspirations less of a headache at seasons end...what would the other codes make of an a-lg season that overlaps theirs?
reckon some serious analysis needs to be done by ffa into how many a-league fans will switch off once the other codes start etc, but it's a fine balancing act cause you need to entice players to play in this league by giving them a "season", not a "sprint"...
and certainly even moreso when you factor in the likelihood of some more international weekends.
nice series mike, it would be great to see the season expanded into march and april, maybe even may, thus giving players with international aspirations less of a headache at seasons end...what would the other codes make of an a-lg season that overlaps theirs?
reckon some serious analysis needs to be done by ffa into how many a-league fans will switch off once the other codes start etc, but it's a fine balancing act cause you need to entice players to play in this league by giving them a "season", not a "sprint"...
...But got to admit that the Victory are symbolically rather "mainstream" are they not?
When I fist laid eyes on them, they smacked of Scotland. And they still do....
At first glance, yes absolutely. Sorry for dragging this off topic.
But look into it:
1. Flag of St. Andrew Colours - also the colours of the "Big V"
2. Scotland the Brave for a song - well this is entirely Glenn Wheatley's fault and nobody likes him.
3. Scottish coach - Merrick, but if we're lucky he'll be gone by next season and if we're luckier he'll not be gone because we'll have done something worthwhile in Asia. The only thing to worry about is Stuart Munro taking over.
You've got Aaron Healey, Geoff Miles and Geoff Lord prominent within the club. They are anglo. So what? We knew the FFA was looking for 'new' soccer but it gets taken as some anti-ethnic conspiracy.
If Horvat's bid had been successful , they would be referred to as a Cro club but I doubt there would be this big issue from the Anglos. SMH people might, understandably, be a bit jealous.
When I fist laid eyes on them, they smacked of Scotland. And they still do....
At first glance, yes absolutely. Sorry for dragging this off topic.
But look into it:
1. Flag of St. Andrew Colours - also the colours of the "Big V"
2. Scotland the Brave for a song - well this is entirely Glenn Wheatley's fault and nobody likes him.
3. Scottish coach - Merrick, but if we're lucky he'll be gone by next season and if we're luckier he'll not be gone because we'll have done something worthwhile in Asia. The only thing to worry about is Stuart Munro taking over.
You've got Aaron Healey, Geoff Miles and Geoff Lord prominent within the club. They are anglo. So what? We knew the FFA was looking for 'new' soccer but it gets taken as some anti-ethnic conspiracy.
If Horvat's bid had been successful , they would be referred to as a Cro club but I doubt there would be this big issue from the Anglos. SMH people might, understandably, be a bit jealous.
Trouble is that 3 x 8 for 3 seasons has become uninteresting to the uninformed general public.
I have over-heard fans discussing it during games.
New teams are essential next season. We need new blood and ideas. Even if, probably especially, naive. - ie attack, attack attack like the old Roar...
I have over-heard fans discussing it during games.
New teams are essential next season. We need new blood and ideas. Even if, probably especially, naive. - ie attack, attack attack like the old Roar...
...You've got Aaron Healey, Geoff Miles and Geoff Lord prominent within the club. They are anglo. So what? We knew the FFA was looking for 'new' soccer but it gets taken as some anti-ethnic conspiracy.
Well yes, if the FFA are replacing 'old soccer' ethnic ties with a 'new one' that is decidedly Anglo is disingenuous and hurtful outcome to those who grew up here playing 'wog ball'.
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Well yes, if the FFA are replacing 'old soccer' ethnic ties with a 'new one' that is decidedly Anglo is disingenuous and hurtful outcome to those who grew up here playing 'wog ball'.
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