Wednesday, September 26, 2007
Mr. Not Hiddink - another update
Everyone's having their say on the Advocaat issue. Les Murray has essentially backed Frank Lowy's position, although he hasn't gone into the question of whether Advocaat is the right man if we're to go foreign.
Then there's this morning's little spray from Old Grumpyguts himself, Les Scheinflug.
Much of what Scheinflug says there is not far wrong, in my view, although his assertion that the FFA's money would be better spent developing a youth league is, well, debatable.
The thrust of his argument seems to be that local coaches may have been able to achieve better results in the past, had they enjoyed the logistical support that Guus Hiddink (and Terry Venables before him) enjoyed. He's right, I feel.
He is right, too, to pull the current administration up on the indiscriminate use of the "Old Soccer" tag. However, the gripe loses some of its impact given the context; Scheinflug's comments are conveyed by the venerable Murdoch football hack Ray Gatt, who indulges in some utterly cringeworthy encomia of his subject:
Scheinflug, 69, a legend of the game in this country...
Regarded as one of the pioneers of the sport in Australia...
Inducted into the Australian football hall of fame...
He is recognised as the father of youth football in Australia...
Just don't mention the Stewart Report. Or Scheinflug's own brief, unsuccessful spell as Socceroos manager.
First-time readers should perhaps be made aware that Scheinflug has long been a close friend of that icon of "Old Soccer", Tony Labbozzetta. The latter's interests have consistently been supported in the past by a certain Ray Gatt.
Yes, the cronyism of "Old Soccer" is exaggerated. But it does exist.
Then there's this morning's little spray from Old Grumpyguts himself, Les Scheinflug.
Much of what Scheinflug says there is not far wrong, in my view, although his assertion that the FFA's money would be better spent developing a youth league is, well, debatable.
The thrust of his argument seems to be that local coaches may have been able to achieve better results in the past, had they enjoyed the logistical support that Guus Hiddink (and Terry Venables before him) enjoyed. He's right, I feel.
He is right, too, to pull the current administration up on the indiscriminate use of the "Old Soccer" tag. However, the gripe loses some of its impact given the context; Scheinflug's comments are conveyed by the venerable Murdoch football hack Ray Gatt, who indulges in some utterly cringeworthy encomia of his subject:
Scheinflug, 69, a legend of the game in this country...
Regarded as one of the pioneers of the sport in Australia...
Inducted into the Australian football hall of fame...
He is recognised as the father of youth football in Australia...
Just don't mention the Stewart Report. Or Scheinflug's own brief, unsuccessful spell as Socceroos manager.
First-time readers should perhaps be made aware that Scheinflug has long been a close friend of that icon of "Old Soccer", Tony Labbozzetta. The latter's interests have consistently been supported in the past by a certain Ray Gatt.
Yes, the cronyism of "Old Soccer" is exaggerated. But it does exist.
Comments:
<< Home
I agree with Les Murray personally. To think Scheinflug is actually denying that the 'old soccer national team' regime still exists is laughable really.. its clear as crystal
Thank goodness that its starting to be critised so openly now, cause its holding us back.
In Scheinflugs article he states
'Let's not forget Hiddink walked into a situation where we were ripe for the picking. Those players were developed by Australian coaches and had made their mark overseas.'
Hiddink walked into a ripe situation? How on earth can he say that when he walked into job so close to the qualifiers. He had to even cancel friendlies (i remember oen against Colombia that was supposed to go ahead) just to get the team to gel.
Furthermore our best players e.g Harry Kewell, Lucas Neil, Tim Cahill did not really get deveopled by Australian coaches. They went overseas at a very young age..
And what is he talking about had made their mark overseas? Yea maybe a few of them, but what about the likes of Wilkshire? What about how Hiddink brought the likes of Patafta, Leijer to everyones attention for the future?
Lets face it in reality Australia is going to (and really should be) relying on foreign coaches for a little while to come. I mean just look at all the other Asian (or even African) nations that have been in the world cup... South Korea.. Japan... Senegal...
All foreign coaches...
Im sorry but we just dont have the expertise at the moment..
I'll tell ya what im a bit worried for the NT if Lowy leaves.. he is the only one at the highest level who seems to understand the importance of foreign expertise.. does Buckley and the rest of the board? Im not too sure...
Thank goodness that its starting to be critised so openly now, cause its holding us back.
In Scheinflugs article he states
'Let's not forget Hiddink walked into a situation where we were ripe for the picking. Those players were developed by Australian coaches and had made their mark overseas.'
Hiddink walked into a ripe situation? How on earth can he say that when he walked into job so close to the qualifiers. He had to even cancel friendlies (i remember oen against Colombia that was supposed to go ahead) just to get the team to gel.
Furthermore our best players e.g Harry Kewell, Lucas Neil, Tim Cahill did not really get deveopled by Australian coaches. They went overseas at a very young age..
And what is he talking about had made their mark overseas? Yea maybe a few of them, but what about the likes of Wilkshire? What about how Hiddink brought the likes of Patafta, Leijer to everyones attention for the future?
Lets face it in reality Australia is going to (and really should be) relying on foreign coaches for a little while to come. I mean just look at all the other Asian (or even African) nations that have been in the world cup... South Korea.. Japan... Senegal...
All foreign coaches...
Im sorry but we just dont have the expertise at the moment..
I'll tell ya what im a bit worried for the NT if Lowy leaves.. he is the only one at the highest level who seems to understand the importance of foreign expertise.. does Buckley and the rest of the board? Im not too sure...
# posted by 
: September 26, 2007 at 8:51 PM
: September 26, 2007 at 8:51 PM
...Hiddink walked into a ripe situation? How on earth can he say that when he walked into job so close to the qualifiers....
I think Scheinflug was referring to the development of the players rather than the specific qualifying situation.
...Furthermore our best players e.g Harry Kewell, Lucas Neill, Tim Cahill did not really get deveopled by Australian coaches. They went overseas at a very young age...
Those three did, but there were a fair few in that 2006 squad/team who had spent their formative days in Oz (Viduka, Schwarzer, Bresciano, Chipperfield etc.).
...Yeah maybe a few of them, but what about the likes of Wilkshire? What about how Hiddink brought the likes of Patafta, Leijer to everyones attention for the future?...
The vast majority of the Oz squad were established in good Euro leagues. Wilkshire was an exception, and as for Patafta and Leijer (and Sarkies), they were just in the train-on squad for good measure and PR. People read too much into that sort of thing, IMO.
...Lets face it in reality Australia is going to (and really should be) relying on foreign coaches for a little while to come. I mean just look at all the other Asian (or even African) nations that have been in the world cup... South Korea.. Japan...Senegal...All foreign coaches...
This is true, but I think what people forget is that, due to the make-up of our population post-WW2, there's been a European influence here for a very long time. Something you couldn't say about Japan, for instance.
I'm not saying we should go local, in fact I do think that we'd be best served by getting a foreign coach who has had experience in Asia (that's the key point, for me). But I think the local coaches are sometimes unnecessarily maligned, often because there's this continual refusal to acknowledge that whenever we've had a foreigner in the Socceroo gig, he's been afforded the kind of support that the locals who've done it could only dream of.
I think Scheinflug was referring to the development of the players rather than the specific qualifying situation.
...Furthermore our best players e.g Harry Kewell, Lucas Neill, Tim Cahill did not really get deveopled by Australian coaches. They went overseas at a very young age...
Those three did, but there were a fair few in that 2006 squad/team who had spent their formative days in Oz (Viduka, Schwarzer, Bresciano, Chipperfield etc.).
...Yeah maybe a few of them, but what about the likes of Wilkshire? What about how Hiddink brought the likes of Patafta, Leijer to everyones attention for the future?...
The vast majority of the Oz squad were established in good Euro leagues. Wilkshire was an exception, and as for Patafta and Leijer (and Sarkies), they were just in the train-on squad for good measure and PR. People read too much into that sort of thing, IMO.
...Lets face it in reality Australia is going to (and really should be) relying on foreign coaches for a little while to come. I mean just look at all the other Asian (or even African) nations that have been in the world cup... South Korea.. Japan...Senegal...All foreign coaches...
This is true, but I think what people forget is that, due to the make-up of our population post-WW2, there's been a European influence here for a very long time. Something you couldn't say about Japan, for instance.
I'm not saying we should go local, in fact I do think that we'd be best served by getting a foreign coach who has had experience in Asia (that's the key point, for me). But I think the local coaches are sometimes unnecessarily maligned, often because there's this continual refusal to acknowledge that whenever we've had a foreigner in the Socceroo gig, he's been afforded the kind of support that the locals who've done it could only dream of.
Excellent points made, Mikey. You have certainly raised my critical level of football in the last few months in a number of articles on this blogsite.
We know each other from TWGF. I extol the virtues of this blog frequently and hail from the southernmost state!
We know each other from TWGF. I extol the virtues of this blog frequently and hail from the southernmost state!
# posted by : September 26, 2007 at 11:03 PM
: September 26, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Hi Mike. Having now read Ross Solly's Shoot Out I feel at least a little backgrounded to this stuff, and I appreciate your own ability to keep us critically up to date.
In fact, if anyone wants to keep up with soccer politics in Australia, I'd recommend they read Solly's book, then keep an eye on your blog.
Now I know where your old man fits into things as well. You must have been brought up swimming in Australian sport.
Is the Stewart Report published on the net somewhere?
In fact, if anyone wants to keep up with soccer politics in Australia, I'd recommend they read Solly's book, then keep an eye on your blog.
Now I know where your old man fits into things as well. You must have been brought up swimming in Australian sport.
Is the Stewart Report published on the net somewhere?
Dick has experience in Asia from coaching South korea to quite respectable form in the world cup and he is a passionate man thus the advocation of Advocaat. ( I am sooo funy)
I would like to know wohm among the locals do people believe can coach the socceroos.
Arnie has shown he hasn't the goods in his short time but he may learn as he coacheds the olyroos
I would like to know wohm among the locals do people believe can coach the socceroos.
Arnie has shown he hasn't the goods in his short time but he may learn as he coacheds the olyroos
# posted by : September 27, 2007 at 8:36 AM
: September 27, 2007 at 8:36 AM
...We know each other from TWGF. I extol the virtues of this blog frequently and hail from the southernmost state!...
Identification positive. ;-)
Good to hear from you dc, thanks for the wrap.
TWGF seems to be going through another of its prepubescent infestation periods. Pity.
...Hi Mike. Having now read Ross Solly's Shoot Out I feel at least a little backgrounded to this stuff...
G'day Hamish!
Very well-researched little book, isn't it. Excellent introduction to the skullduggery of the latter half of the NSL era.
...Now I know where your old man fits into things as well. You must have been brought up swimming in Australian sport....
:-)
Ah, those David Hill days at the ABC. The most stressful period of his working life, by a mile. I was about 14-15 then, still living at home obviously, so I didn't learn all the details but certainly saw how that whole period affected him (the row over covering the football was only the tip of the iceberg, incidentally).
When I read Ross's book I asked him again about the whole business, and he basically said that the clubs at that time were a bunch of smug amateurs who had no idea how to work with a TV broadcaster. I'm sure the other side of the story would be interesting to hear.
He's much happier doing what he does now. ;-)
Identification positive. ;-)
Good to hear from you dc, thanks for the wrap.
TWGF seems to be going through another of its prepubescent infestation periods. Pity.
...Hi Mike. Having now read Ross Solly's Shoot Out I feel at least a little backgrounded to this stuff...
G'day Hamish!
Very well-researched little book, isn't it. Excellent introduction to the skullduggery of the latter half of the NSL era.
...Now I know where your old man fits into things as well. You must have been brought up swimming in Australian sport....
:-)
Ah, those David Hill days at the ABC. The most stressful period of his working life, by a mile. I was about 14-15 then, still living at home obviously, so I didn't learn all the details but certainly saw how that whole period affected him (the row over covering the football was only the tip of the iceberg, incidentally).
When I read Ross's book I asked him again about the whole business, and he basically said that the clubs at that time were a bunch of smug amateurs who had no idea how to work with a TV broadcaster. I'm sure the other side of the story would be interesting to hear.
He's much happier doing what he does now. ;-)
...Dick has experience in Asia from coaching South korea to quite respectable form in the world cup...
Yeah, but he didn't see them through the qualifying process. Jo Bonfrere did that.
I'll agree they were pretty good at the WC, and that the criticism of him there is pretty unfair (I've mentioned that before).
Yeah, but he didn't see them through the qualifying process. Jo Bonfrere did that.
I'll agree they were pretty good at the WC, and that the criticism of him there is pretty unfair (I've mentioned that before).
"He's much happier doing what he does now. ;-)"
I've actually read some of that book without really thinking of the potential familial connection! It was a good read from what I recall.
On the subject of Solly's Shootout, I've read most Aussie football books but this is one I've never seen in any bookstore. This one is worth hunting down is it?
Oh, and it's always a good idea to take Ray Gatt's 'journalism' with a healthy dose of salt. The funny thing is that when I saw Scheinflug's name in the first line of your blog, my immediate thought was that link would be from The Australian. Too predictable Ray.....
Gatt's 'sources' are the same familiar faces ad nauseum. Without Rasic, Farina, Scheinflug and Kossie, the poor bloke would have no-one to talk to and nothing to write. How the guy has a job at one of the major dailies is one of the world's great mysteries.
I've actually read some of that book without really thinking of the potential familial connection! It was a good read from what I recall.
On the subject of Solly's Shootout, I've read most Aussie football books but this is one I've never seen in any bookstore. This one is worth hunting down is it?
Oh, and it's always a good idea to take Ray Gatt's 'journalism' with a healthy dose of salt. The funny thing is that when I saw Scheinflug's name in the first line of your blog, my immediate thought was that link would be from The Australian. Too predictable Ray.....
Gatt's 'sources' are the same familiar faces ad nauseum. Without Rasic, Farina, Scheinflug and Kossie, the poor bloke would have no-one to talk to and nothing to write. How the guy has a job at one of the major dailies is one of the world's great mysteries.
# posted by : September 27, 2007 at 10:32 AM
: September 27, 2007 at 10:32 AM
Actually, I think it's "The Media We Deserve" that I read parts of recently. Has he written anything else, because I know I've seen the name somewhere.
# posted by : September 27, 2007 at 10:38 AM
: September 27, 2007 at 10:38 AM
...On the subject of Solly's Shootout, I've read most Aussie football books but this is one I've never seen in any bookstore. This one is worth hunting down is it?...
Definitely. Good summary of Oz football politics pre-2005. I'm sure you know the whole story backwards anyway TFO (I know how long you've been following Oz football ;-) ), but Solly's book is a good rundown.
...Actually, I think it's "The Media We Deserve" that I read parts of recently. Has he written anything else, because I know I've seen the name somewhere....
"Media We Deserve" is what he's been working on for the last six months or so (he's now off on a well-earned holiday in Europe). Glad you liked it. Mike Carlton recently described it as "the longest suicide note in the history of Oz journalism".
He's done a couple of other books recently - one on the 1964 Voyager disaster ("Breaking Ranks") and one on sailing ("All Piss and Wind"). Writing isn't as lucrative as journalism, but he's had about enough of the latter.
Definitely. Good summary of Oz football politics pre-2005. I'm sure you know the whole story backwards anyway TFO (I know how long you've been following Oz football ;-) ), but Solly's book is a good rundown.
...Actually, I think it's "The Media We Deserve" that I read parts of recently. Has he written anything else, because I know I've seen the name somewhere....
"Media We Deserve" is what he's been working on for the last six months or so (he's now off on a well-earned holiday in Europe). Glad you liked it. Mike Carlton recently described it as "the longest suicide note in the history of Oz journalism".
He's done a couple of other books recently - one on the 1964 Voyager disaster ("Breaking Ranks") and one on sailing ("All Piss and Wind"). Writing isn't as lucrative as journalism, but he's had about enough of the latter.
"...Definitely. Good summary of Oz football politics pre-2005. I'm sure you know the whole story backwards anyway TFO (I know how long you've been following Oz football ;-) ), but Solly's book is a good rundown...."
Cheers Mike, we can never stop learning, so I'm sure it's worth pursuing, especially if it's as well researched as you and others say.
I hope it's more in-depth than Trevor Thompson's effort from last year, which was quite a decent read, but had the feel of something cobbled together at the last minute to cash in on WC fever.
"Writing isn't as lucrative as journalism, but he's had about enough of the latter."
Why does that not surprise me? ;o)
Cheers Mike, we can never stop learning, so I'm sure it's worth pursuing, especially if it's as well researched as you and others say.
I hope it's more in-depth than Trevor Thompson's effort from last year, which was quite a decent read, but had the feel of something cobbled together at the last minute to cash in on WC fever.
"Writing isn't as lucrative as journalism, but he's had about enough of the latter."
Why does that not surprise me? ;o)
# posted by : September 27, 2007 at 8:42 PM
: September 27, 2007 at 8:42 PM
Ray Gatt is Labozzetta's son in law ????
Mr Gatt - credibility - gone.
Mr Gatt - credibility - gone.
# posted by : September 28, 2007 at 3:32 PM
: September 28, 2007 at 3:32 PM
Dear Mike
I'd strongly suggest you take out the reference re Ray Gatt being Tony Labbozzetta's son-in-law. Very, very wrong. You should check your facts.
I have met Ray's wife (Karen). Labbozzetta's daughter is living in Italy.
Seeing you are such a pillar of journalism, an apology is forthcoming to the Labbozzetta family.
I'd strongly suggest you take out the reference re Ray Gatt being Tony Labbozzetta's son-in-law. Very, very wrong. You should check your facts.
I have met Ray's wife (Karen). Labbozzetta's daughter is living in Italy.
Seeing you are such a pillar of journalism, an apology is forthcoming to the Labbozzetta family.
# posted by : October 2, 2007 at 9:04 PM
: October 2, 2007 at 9:04 PM
...Dear Mike
I'd strongly suggest you take out the reference re Ray Gatt being Tony Labbozzetta's son-in-law. Very, very wrong. You should check your facts.
I have met Ray's wife (Karen). Labbozzetta's daughter is living in Italy.
Seeing you are such a pillar of journalism, an apology is forthcoming to the Labbozzetta family....
Very well, shall alter the post accordingly. I had been told by various parties in the past that that was the relationship.
Perhaps you could apprise me of what their relationship actually consists of? It's no secret that Mr. Gatt has consistently supported Labbozzetta's interests in the past, quite shamelessly most of the time.
I'd strongly suggest you take out the reference re Ray Gatt being Tony Labbozzetta's son-in-law. Very, very wrong. You should check your facts.
I have met Ray's wife (Karen). Labbozzetta's daughter is living in Italy.
Seeing you are such a pillar of journalism, an apology is forthcoming to the Labbozzetta family....
Very well, shall alter the post accordingly. I had been told by various parties in the past that that was the relationship.
Perhaps you could apprise me of what their relationship actually consists of? It's no secret that Mr. Gatt has consistently supported Labbozzetta's interests in the past, quite shamelessly most of the time.
Fixed, anonymous. Pass on my apologies if you're able. And there is a pillar of journalism with my surname, but it ain't me. ;-)
Thank you for your'e attention, Micheal.
I have met Ray Gatt a few times both in and out of the company of Tony Labbozzetta because we run in to each other through junior soccer and cricket in Fairfield-Liverpool area.
I know they are very good friends.
I spoke to Ray this morning to tell him about this. He laughed because he has lost count of the number of times something like that has been said. The Labbozzettas are pretty pissed and tired of the rumours.
Post a Comment
I have met Ray Gatt a few times both in and out of the company of Tony Labbozzetta because we run in to each other through junior soccer and cricket in Fairfield-Liverpool area.
I know they are very good friends.
I spoke to Ray this morning to tell him about this. He laughed because he has lost count of the number of times something like that has been said. The Labbozzettas are pretty pissed and tired of the rumours.
# posted by : October 3, 2007 at 3:01 PM
: October 3, 2007 at 3:01 PM << Home
